Decoding Sales Episode 40: What Peter Got Wrong
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[00:00:00] 

Alex Allain: Welcome to Decoding Sales, a podcast where an engineer, that's me, Alex, and a salesperson, 

Peter Ahn: that's me, Peter, 

Alex Allain: talk about the art and science of sales as it relates to life and business. In this episode, we are going to revisit some topics that Peter has changed his mind on.

We want to give you the best information, so when Peter is wrong, we are here to correct it. So we are going to cover a number of different topics, including BANT versus Medic. What's CRM to use and what are the right qualifications for a first sales hire? So Peter, I'd love to just straight up dive in. I know it's a little uncomfortably wrong, but we're gonna just go through the places that you change your mind.

So, uh, the first one is on BANT versus Medic. , you've changed your tune on what startups should be using. Can you first tell us what are they, what are they for, and then , what's different, what's new? 

Peter Ahn: Yeah, BANT and MEDIC or [00:01:00] MEDDPICC are , qualification frameworks to determine whether or not you should continue down the sales process with a specific prospect or disqualify them out of your pipeline.

So, , oftentimes when I go to clients, they ask me, Hey, what should we do with our discovery framework? How should we actually look at a lead, qualify it in and out of the sales pipeline? And most of the time, actually, folks use MEDDPICC. And I think it's because MEDDPICC feels a little bit more sophisticated.

There's a lot more letters in the acronym. It feels like maybe you're batting above your weight because all large sales teams use MEDDPICC and they have this very clear qualification process. But, , I've changed my tune and then I think it's way too heavyweight. And I think startups should actually start with something a little bit more lightweight and simple, like BANT.

, now MEDDPICC just to give our listeners a sense for what the acronym stands for. It's METRICS for M, [00:02:00] E is Economic Buyer. Like who's the executive sponsor you're aligning with? D is Decision Criteria. What are the success metrics they're looking at? The second D is Decision Process. How are they actually going through qualifying the success criteria?

P stands for Paper Process. So paper process is around, you know, the legal paperwork, security questionnaires. What are the actual documents you need to fill out as part of the sales process? , I is Identify Pain. So is there actual pain that you're solving for? C is Champion. Who is your Champion? That's different from Executive Sponsor because oftentimes the Champion is the one who will go to bat for you, give you more information, and truly be involved in the day to day, whereas Economic Buyer is the signer typically.

And then the last You sold 

Alex Allain: me on, on this, on this extremely elaborate and, thorough process. 

Peter Ahn: Yeah. Yeah. And I'll tell you why I've changed my mind on it. Right? Because the last C is competition. Meaning like [00:03:00] who else is in the game with you? Who else is being evaluated? The reason why it's so heavyweight is because every time I go into listening to calls at startups, it feels extremely robotic.

You can tell the prospects disengage because you're trying to ask so many questions and the reps feel unnaturally. Anxious and nervous on calls and you can visibly see it. And so oftentimes when I go into coaching and engagements, I say, let's just get rid of MEDDPICC right now. Because it's, it's having you show up unnaturally and let's bring in BANT.

Now BANT has similar qualification criteria, but there's less acronyms. And the B stands for budget. A is authority, similar to economic buyer. Who is your sponsor? N is need. Is there a pain that you're solving for? And T is timeline. Is there urgency and when do they want to make a decision? And so I start there and then I've modified it slightly to say, Hey, BANT also doesn't get into the [00:04:00] nuances of your technology.

That's also very important in a qualification process. You need to also tell your prospects what your differentiators are. And so I add a T to that, Technology. What are your technical differentiators and what is your customer's tech stack? And then we also add the C, Competition. So I have BANT, plus Techstack, your technical moat, plus competition, because startups are in very, very noisy competitive environments.

So I'll stop there. , I'm a strong proponent now of simplifying it, and I do think MEDDPICC just makes you do a lot of unnatural things, and it's too much for the rep to be able to process in a single call, and it feels too much like a checklist to prospects. 

Alex Allain: So you're, you're in the BANTC world.

Peter Ahn: Exactly. BANTC, trademarked by Peter. Yeah. 

Alex Allain: It's a little ugly. You've like jammed together a bunch of T consonants. 

Peter Ahn: Yeah, I know. Right. Yeah. And actually the second part of this is, , of [00:05:00] course frameworks don't work without a way to actually phrase the questions and a way to segue through each of the points.

So I never suggest sales teams to. Look at BANTC if we want to call it that in the beginning of the call, right? You need to peel the layers of the onion. You need to pick up the breadcrumbs, which is something we talked about. And so what I say is start with one or two questions. Start lightly, get the conversation warmed up.

Start talking about your product and ask more questions as you give the prospect what they're asking for, which is, what the heck does your product do? And then start to bring in other elements of need, timing, authority, as the conversation goes on and as your prospect drops hints as to, , the root of why they're looking at you from a sales perspective.

Alex Allain: . So, Peter, are you saying that you should definitely start off with just asking what the budget is for your prospect? 

Peter Ahn: Definitely not. But, you know, maybe if that's what they start the call with. 

Alex Allain: Sure. If [00:06:00] you were to just order the letters in BANT, like, what are the first couple of questions you usually like to ask here?

Peter Ahn: Yeah, the first couple of questions I like to ask are first, , if it's an inbound lead, I like to ask, what made you reach out to us? Okay. You know, what's your understanding of our product? Are you already a user? Like, what initiated the call? , and then the second thing is, you know, what problems are you dealing with?

Like, what is the reason why you're looking at a platform like ours? Tell me a little bit about the workflows today that are causing you to look for a solution. So it's more of the N, , and BANT that I really like to focus on. And it goes across multiple questions, by the way, right? It's not just those two questions, but once you get into the pitch, you start to qualify urgency a little bit more.

You get into the root of the need a little bit more, because usually they'll tell you about a surface level pain, and you need to dig deeper, right? So those are the questions I like to start with. 

Alex Allain: So you're a NABTC. 

Peter Ahn: Yeah. NABTC. There you go. Well, we're going to confuse our listeners with all this. [00:07:00] Yeah, yeah, 

Alex Allain: yeah.

Guys, just stick with BANT plus technology stack plus competition. That's great, Peter. I love that. So. Obviously some of the stuff in MEDDPICC, when you add that P, which we didn't even talk about in the first episode, you're, you're getting into a lot of like, nuanced process components, I feel like, you know, decision process, paper process, et cetera, decision criteria, whatever.

Like, how do you sort of see that fitting into the sales process with a BANT?, Style Approach. That is such a great question. 

Peter Ahn: Such a great question. Yeah, it is important. So, my answer to that is, picking up breadcrumbs is really important. As a first concept. And then the second concept is, I don't think a great sales process means that you get all of these questions answered on the first call.

You have to Peel the onion, not chop the onion, right? If you want to build an authentic relationship. And so, , that's why I coach a lot on breadcrumbs, which is to refresh , our listeners, you need to be able to [00:08:00] pick up the verbal cues of what your prospect is saying and dig deeper,, in order to qualify the prospect.

, it's not helpful to qualify a prospect off of a list of questions. What is helpful is if somebody like, let's say Alex, you're a prospect and you say, Hey, what is the price point for your product? I can answer that and say, we have various price points, but here's a range. Alex, can I ask you why you asked that question so early?

Do you have a specific budget in mind? , because then now you're starting to ask a question based off of what the prospect has given you and you train the prospect that you're actively listening, not going through a list. And so that's my answer to MEDDPICC. I think there's still very important, , qualification criteria.

And I think it's really important internal nomenclature to have, to say, who is the executive sponsor versus a champion, but I don't think it's helpful to divulge that on a call. If your prospect doesn't take you there. 

Alex Allain: Right. So Yeah, 

Peter Ahn: so, so yeah, that's my answer. Does that, does that help? Yeah, so, I think 

Alex Allain: so.

Let me [00:09:00] just like, kind of say this back. Maybe push a little bit. So like, BANT and MEDDPICC, MEDDIC, whatever, you know, all of these acronyms are designed for sort of like new sellers. Or like early stage sellers, or to create a standardized process at your company. And I think what you're saying is like, yeah, the things in MEDDPICC are not irrelevant.

They're still kind of useful. But if you're going to sort of standardize like the core things you want people to be thinking about as a baseline, keep it simple. But then you do still need to kind of train people on how to get the rest of that information that MEDDPICC brings in. But you're not sort of like mandating or expecting.

Creating this like expectation they need to fill out this whole template, , which just means they're less likely to actually do the more nuanced breadcrumb approach. , so you're, you're sort of taking people off the leash, if you will, earlier, to find these things out on their own versus like in a more standardized way.

Is that the right way to think about it? I'm just, I guess I'm a little confused because you're like, this stuff all matters, but I'm like, what's the point of these [00:10:00] acronyms, 

Peter Ahn: you know, 

Alex Allain: does that make sense? 

Peter Ahn: I think it makes perfect sense. I think what I'm saying is that, , it's important to have these conversations around what the qualification criteria is for a deal, but you need to focus more on the delivery of the questions and how you phrase them, and then also crucial sales skills, like how you listen to a prospect and mirror them.

. And I think right now, what happens is when. You're trying to release a framework. You focus so much on the framework that you don't really talk about the delivery. And I think the delivery is much more important in modern sales. And so that's what I'm suggesting is to marry. Really effective delivery with a framework.

You have to start with a framework that's lightweight. And that mirrors also what you're going to start with when you're training on delivery too. When I train on delivery as well, there's a lot of things I can train. You know, I could say, hey, segue phrases, breadcrumbs, I can talk about [00:11:00] negotiation tactics, I can talk about, , how you actually talk about the acronyms in your space, right?

If you're selling in cybersecurity, for example, there's a ton that I can coach on, but effective trainers and teachers start small. frameworks, too. Like, you may eventually want to get to MEDDPICC, by the way., like when your company matures, but , a lot of our founders are early stage. What is the step before MEDDPICC or , three or four steps before MEDDPICC?

And how do you actually artfully combine the framework with the delivery? And I think that's harder to do than to say, Oh, here's a framework where we check all the boxes. 

Alex Allain: Yeah, okay, let me just say that back to you and see if I got it. So you're basically like, look, if you're an early stage company that's just starting to put in place a sales process, you're a founder who's learning sales, , you need some basic framework to hang your hat on.

Start with BANT, it's simpler. And that lets you focus on the [00:12:00] delivery and the way the phrasing and all these other things that are really important. Whereas if you start with MEDDPICC, which by the way, is even more complicated than MEDDIC, which is the thing we talked about in our last episode, then you're just going to get lost in the soup of question of like trying to make sure you check every single box in that list.

It's not that it's not important. It's not that those things won't matter to you in the sales process. It's just that. It's not a good way to approach learning that. When you've got a BANT down, then you can expand to MEDDPICC, or maybe you're at the point where you don't even need it, but you kind of add in a letter at a time.

Yes. As you're sort of developing your skill set, and that you think is a more consumable, bite sized approach to this process. 

Peter Ahn: Yeah, it's like when you're developing a product, you always start with this concept of an MVP, right, and that's similar with sales. , Tido said on the last episode that sales is a product in and of itself, and MEDDPICC is not conducive to iterative sales processes. [00:13:00] MEDDPICC almost feels like the destination that people are trying to get to, but to get to that destination, you need to start with a more digestible, authentic, genuine, like, human approach, which I think BANT, or whatever we coin Alex, like NABTC, or whatever you said, I don't know what you said, like.

We're not 

Alex Allain: gonna, yeah. 

Peter Ahn: Yeah, we're not gonna try. We're not gonna 

Alex Allain: try. BANT with Technology Stack and, , Competition. Competition. Yeah, BANTC. Right. BANTC. Keep it easy. 

Peter Ahn: That is a much more, , digestible starting point to iterate on a process. 

Alex Allain: I think that's great.

Can you just take like two minutes, what are the questions that you asked for the T and the C that you've added in? Tell us a little bit more about how you approached that in the process. 

Peter Ahn: Great question. So for the T, I typically like to ask, like, can you give me a sense for your technology stack in general?

Because we work well with certain, , integrations, so I want to make sure there's a fit there. And then I also want [00:14:00] to, as part of that, explain to you how unique we are in integrating with that tech stack. So that, that's a good question slash I'm going to give you some value type phrasing 

, for the C, I like to ask, Can I ask, , what other platforms you're looking at? So that I can tailor the conversation to what you've already seen.

Alex Allain: And if 

Peter Ahn: somebody says, Oh, we're looking at two other platforms, , I'll dig deeper and say, can I ask , which two platforms you're referring to? And if they answer, then I ask, what do you like about those platforms and what gaps have you seen thus far? 

Alex Allain: And 

Peter Ahn: then there's another set of questions which is, how deep are you in the evaluation with those platforms?

Right. All questions to understand where you sit in the stack ranking and where you can actually take advantage of a gap that your competitors have. 

Alex Allain: That's great. I love that. I love the, , the way you phrased [00:15:00] that first question about competition so that it's Kind of inviting them to share in order to help you explain to them in the context in terms they've already been seeing.

I think that's a really nice , way to do that. , well, that's great. , so we are here officially saying previously Peter said BANT or Med, Medic, choose what you want. Now he's like, well, actually it's MEDDPICC. And by the way, don't do that. Do ban. Ask about the competition, ask about their tech stack.

It's simpler, it's the way to go. Alright, great. Number one down. Peter, let's move on to another topic that you have changed your mind on. , CRMs. So, I believe that in the episode we did on CRMs, you said, fuck it, Salesforce the ass, but you should just bite the bullet and go directly to Salesforce. I have to admit, I didn't actually follow that advice myself when I was, uh, U.

S. Digital Response and we were choosing a CRM. So I'm not surprised you've changed your mind. , but I am curious to hear , what's your new opinion and why did you change your mind? 

Peter Ahn: Yeah, I'll tell you the context as to why I said, [00:16:00] bite the bullet and go to Salesforce first.

I think it was a couple of reasons. One is the go to market tech side ecosystem is heavily favoring Salesforce, even today. Right. If you think about, Oh, does this integrate with my CRM? Usually it's like, yup. We integrate with Salesforce and then we'll integrate with HubSpot and then tell us whatever, you know, toy CRM you're playing around with, right?

Brutal. So, so that 

Alex Allain: Salesforce, 

Peter Ahn: I know, right. They should sponsor me or sponsor us, but that was one part. The second part is because of that reality. I felt like the pain of migrating to Salesforce would eventually come because the ecosystem is all very much geared towards Salesforce.

Now I've changed my mind on that because Salesforce is so clunky. Even HubSpot, I tried to use it the other day. It's not very intuitive and it takes so many clicks to get to a very simple question around what is your pipeline size? And. Not a lot of folks have [00:17:00] time, especially in the early stage go to market startup space, to be able to tinker or configure with a tech solution.

You know, we should all be focusing on closing deals, focusing on how we show up on calls, preparing for those calls. And, , the CRMs of the, last 20 years, are just not intuitive or fast enough. And so now I suggest folks to use something as lightweight as possible that allows them to track the deal size, when they're going to close the deal, workflows, who the champion is, next steps, all the basics, but not something where you have to poke around to get insights into what your lead flow is like or what your deal process is like.

Alex Allain: I love that. This is kind of similar in some ways. Software terms don't over engineer your early product, you know, it doesn't need to scale to a billion people. You're not Google, uh, I guess, unless you are, in fact, Google, , , and even then maybe not, but in this context, like, you know, you'd build something that's a relatively simple MVP and, [00:18:00] you know, maybe you.

Do a few things to get ready, but you're not planning and building, putting that investment for large scale. It sounds like you're sort of taking that mindset here as well. 

Peter Ahn: Exactly. Yeah. I'm trying to like lighten the mental load for people to put structure in place. You know, is what I am trying to do as a startup coach, right?

Because startups don't have a ton of resources and have limited capacity. And so I'm taking that same like thought with CRM now. And it's similar to what I said just now with BANT and MEDDPICC. Yeah. Now kind of being in the seat of helping so many different startups in the earliest stages, , I want to help them focus on sales, not systems necessarily.

Alex Allain: Sales, not systems. That's a good line. 

Peter Ahn: I like that. Yeah. 

Alex Allain: I bet you've delivered that a few times. 

Peter Ahn: I actually haven't. Really? You drew that out of me. This is why I enjoy our conversations. 

Alex Allain: Sales, not systems. That's something, that's a chapter in your book, man. 

Peter Ahn: I know. Okay. I got to rewrite that part or add that part.

Alex Allain: So, but I mean, somebody's got to make an actual choice, right?[00:19:00] 

Salesforce is a thing you can go and buy. What would you actually recommend people go and buy? 

Peter Ahn: So recently I've been really impressed with the CRM called Attio attio. com There's also another CRM called Folk, F O L K dot A P P, Folk dot app, is there? And what's interesting about them both is, you know, Notion and Airtable have had such a huge impact on how we think about, , collaborative technology.

And I see their user interface design choices, impacting companies like Attio and Folk. So they're very lightweight. You can do a Kanban view. You could do a spreadsheet view. They also now have reporting. I think folk just released like beta version of reporting. Addy already had it. Simple things like ingesting your emails is done automatically versus trying to BCC an email address or like install something on your, you know, Chrome, , browser, right?

Like that's not a [00:20:00] thing anymore. A lot of us use superhuman, right? So you're not going to like BCC an email address and you're not going to install an extension on superhuman. Or like integrate something through superhuman . And so that like auto ingestion of communication, both from an email and like meeting standpoint, by the way, , is really clean.

And then the user interface is very intuitive and something we're used to now in like Notion and Airtable. Um, so I w I would suggest folks looking at either of those two solutions. , because I think they're purpose built for sales. , but still have similar kind of design concepts as like a notion.

Alex Allain: What about just using Airtable? 

Peter Ahn: I think that could work too. You know, I have like one client who actually just uses a Google spreadsheet. Right. I think it's a 

Alex Allain: Google spreadsheet. I have to say that's too low. Yeah, 

Peter Ahn: I think we'll graduate out of that. But as long as, you know, it's easy in the context of what you're already doing with other systems, right?

Like, let's say you already live out of Airtable for your, , [00:21:00] other workflows. Maybe you use it to track projects and marketing. And it's easy to put another tab in there. Then sure. Start with that. I would say like the one thing you lose and I haven't used Airtable as a CRM ever actually, and haven't seen a client use it recently.

So I'm not sure if this is a true statement. Maybe you'll know Alex, but I think the reporting gets a little bit tough around. You know, how long are leads sitting in a specific stage, right? Like, what is my total pipeline, and how do I map out pipeline per channel? , I think those things, you know, might be possible to work around in Airtable.

I think 

Alex Allain: you could build most of that stuff in Airtable. Okay. It would require a little building, but Airtable is so easy to use. If you are already using it, you probably could put together like a first draft of that. I think the thing you actually lose in Airtable is you don't get the email ingestion.

Peter Ahn: Ah, okay, okay, got it, got it. That's like the biggest 

Alex Allain: thing. And then there's like, not necessarily as clean a set of like notes about a prospect, things like that. But if you're like a two person or three person team, that doesn't matter so much. . So at [00:22:00] USDR, we actually started off tracking everything in Airtable for years.

It was great. , it was a decent amount of infrastructure we built for that. But then we did move to HubSpot eventually, so I said, I didn't take your Salesforce advice. I can't say I apologize to Yamini, I don't know if she listens to our podcast, but like I don't personally love HubSpot actually. , unfortunately, I 

Peter Ahn: have to agree.

It's 

Alex Allain: not, like, the great thing about Airtable is it's extremely flexible, , but , it's not built for sales, obviously, so you don't get that, like, natural UI, , but the, the big thing is that email communication, I think, for a small team. For a larger team, I think, actually, the fact that it, it's a little complicated sometimes for somebody who's not a native Airtable user to, like, know exactly how to use it.

Some of the features also would push me toward like an actual CRM. ,but, , I actually do think that if you're a small team, it's a natural evolution if you're starting at like a Google sheet or something. It 

Peter Ahn: makes sense. Yeah. That's good that you added that and that you, you actually have experience with that, but yeah, I think high level, it's just for me, I've changed my tune around.

The ecosystem play versus [00:23:00] just getting a frictionless framework going fast so that you can continue on your sales path without worrying about expertise in a specific platform, right? Because you do really need to be an expert in Salesforce and even HubSpot to really make it work for you to its full extent.

Alex Allain: I think that's 

Peter Ahn: right. I think that's a hard proposition for startups. 

Alex Allain: Yeah, and that would maybe be the argument for the Google Sheet or the Airtable. It's like a lot of startup founders now are going to, or maybe a Notion database, are going to know those tools and be able to build something that's like 80 percent of what's useful.

And like, frankly, you probably don't need all the email ingestion if you're a small team. Just, I mean, I would say what we, you know, you can just always create like a mailing list and BCC it if you want to do that. 

Peter Ahn: Yeah. And the great news with, tools like Attio is the email ingestion happens retroactively too.

Like it'll, it'll bring in your prior emails, right? So you can always have that. Whereas that wasn't as obvious for me in Salesforce. I don't even know if that's possible in [00:24:00] Salesforce. Totally. 

Alex Allain: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's great. Yeah, so I think we're kind of suggesting folks take exactly the opposite approach.

You're, , doing a 180 and stepping on the gas. I've evolved 

Peter Ahn: my thinking, you know. It's 2024, not 2020, I guess. 

Alex Allain: Yeah, yeah, I love it. So, okay,, skip the Salesforce consultant, do the simplest possible thing, consider, , next generation CRMs or even an Airtable or a Notion. I can't in good conscience recommend Google Sheets.

Google Sheets is just strictly worse than anything else. 

Peter Ahn: I'm going to get that client off of it ASAP. 

Alex Allain: Yeah, I think they'll be happy. Fantastic. Peter, I think we've kind of covered the CRM one., I think this is super valuable knowledge for folks and feels good to kind of reverse that episode. , so the last one, , this is about hiring.

I think, , you've changed your tune on what to look for in your like first sales hire a little bit, right? So what's, what's going on there? 

Peter Ahn: Yeah, a little bit is right. I think I'm still kind of [00:25:00] forming my thoughts around this, but there is a new wave I feel like of sales folks and sales leaders who don't have a traditional sales background.

You know, I think it's very common to take bets on SDRs or junior AEs who come from a different industry. , those have worked out really well for me. Amy, , , who's now a director of sales at Twingate had a legal background, you know, before she joined Twingate and now she's leading sales teams very well and very effectively.

I find her to be one of the most effective sales leaders out there. But now I'm starting to see even like heads of sales or first go to market hires at startups, not have. Typical sales backgrounds. And why I think that's interesting is because it's higher stakes, right? Your sales leader, you would think would need to have years of closing experience, but what I'm seeing across a few of my clients is there are non traditional leaders who might come from like a biz ops background or even a product [00:26:00] background or finance background, or now getting pretty effective, very effective outs in some cases, leading sales teams.

Why is that? I think it's a couple things. One is technical founders need to have technical leaders, and those technical leaders are sometimes found outside of the sales ranks. , and technical doesn't just mean you understand the technology, but it also means you understand how systems work together, how you can actually collaborate with your peers in a technical manner, in a manner that works, , in a productive, collaborative way.

, , I'm thinking of one particular woman who started as a biz ops leader at a company and is now leading sales. She has a lot of institutional knowledge around the numbers. Mmm. And, like, the, Arc of growth at the company and like leads and deals.

And so I think there's a lot more of a need now for, if you are a [00:27:00] traditional sales leader, you better be highly analytical, highly technical, 

Alex Allain: and if 

Peter Ahn: you're a highly analytical and technical leader, there's a chance you can learn the sales side. And so that's, I think something that's going to be really fascinating to see over the next, , let's say five to 10 years, how does the archetype of the sales leader start changing.

Alex Allain: Yeah, I think this is really interesting, Peter. I mean, kind of a couple of things are sort of happening here, right? So one of them is this notion that what matters in sales is less the Rolodex and the network and more the specific nuances of like the fit between Products and customer tech stacks. We even talked about that in the BANT TC, , section.

So this is a real theme. I think that , we're pushing on this idea that sales is getting more technical. , and less about, I guess the systems again, it's not just about knowing how to operate your sales systems, , , , and these sales techniques and frameworks, you know, there's more thought that you've put in and that people have really put in, in general, on like how to make them digestible [00:28:00] to non sales folks. , so sales becomes less of a black art and more of a skill set that people can pick up.

And then somebody has the job of running sales, but you know, it's not necessarily , needing to be somebody who's done exactly that job before because they can pull in the requisite skills. , is that kind of a fair way to think about this? 

Peter Ahn: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think you're exactly right.

Sales is getting a lot more technical. I think buyers are expecting a lot more, , specificity in product differentiation and are less keen to listen to fluff. And so I think there's a group of folks, sales or not, who gravitate towards that type of conversation, 

Alex Allain: which is a lot 

Peter Ahn: more, I think, deeper in terms of the technical foundation of products than was previously expected of people selling things.

And I love Airtable, [00:29:00] I love Slack. Like these companies are generational companies, but the need for salespeople to truly go under the hood wasn't really there, if you think about it. 

Alex Allain: I do 

Peter Ahn: think that salespeople who were able to go under the hood were probably elite salespeople and were. Extremely beneficial to those organizations, but right now when you're selling things, like I was telling you before we started to hit record, you know, there's like companies that you've never heard of either as an engineer that are highly technical, like single source of truth for data, there's like.

15 companies who are doing that. 

Alex Allain: Yeah. 

Peter Ahn: So I think the need to differentiate , on a technical level is, is a lot higher. And then yes, to your other point, it doesn't mean the art of sales and the delivery and how you show up is not important is it's as important, if not even more important, I would say, but those are things that can be taught.

That can be coached and people who are highly [00:30:00] technical. Often I see absorb that even at a faster clip. And can excel in those areas too, given the right tools. 

Alex Allain: Yeah, , I feel like it's very validating for the decoding sales thesis, so I'm feeling good about this. I'm like, look at the impact that we are having on the field.

Peter Ahn: Yes. And it's authentic. It's not like I'm just making this up and I have a, I have a leading point here, you know? 

Alex Allain: Absolutely. No, I love the fact, I, I just as an aside, I love the fact that we're able to pull in and draw from your breadth of knowledge across the. Startup ecosystem. I feel like it just makes this advice even more on point.

, okay. So maybe let's just wrap this up with like one more question here. So if somebody is like looking for their first sales hire, how would you sort of like update your advice? Like it, it's all well and good to say, well, I don't have to be a sales person. But , you still have to figure out how to say yes to somebody.

Peter Ahn: Yep, so what I would look at is, I would try and, you know, [00:31:00] really surface what project management skills they have, because I think that's what I'm saying here. , there's a lot of handling and wearing of multiple hats that a sales leader has to go through if they're like the first sales leader at a company.

And so I think I would look for that even if it's outside of the context of sales. So that's, that's the first thing. , I also think it's , relevant to test on the technical acumen, right? , you don't need to have sales experience to judge on that or to have criteria around that.

And then the last thing is, I think I mentioned this in the previous episode, I would still do that mock discovery pitch 

Alex Allain: because 

Peter Ahn: that's a real life sales, like hardcore sales example. 

Alex Allain: But what 

Peter Ahn: I would say is. Like, yes, look at BANT and MEDDPICC and how they go through the qualification, but I would put even more focus on how they deliver.

How do they engage with you as a person and a human element? And I might be more open with somebody missing, like, for example, , uh, [00:32:00] competition. 

Alex Allain: Right. As 

Peter Ahn: like a qualification criteria, if they're really good at stopping and listening or mirroring what I'm saying, or maybe they instinctively pick up the breadcrumbs because these are cues that, okay, they really do have a passion or, , a skillset in sales, but they probably just need a little bit more guidance as to how to use their presence and polish in a way that gets to very specific qualification criteria as an example, so that's what I would say.

Alex Allain: But. You know, when you hire somebody with a sales background, you're also sort of like bringing in a bunch of assumed tacit knowledge. And so if you're going outside of a sales background, it seems like you need to figure out what tacit knowledge you need to be testing for more explicitly, like in an engineering context.

You know, we tend to be pretty, um, you know, , we'll ask coding interviews, for example, even of people who've been software engineers before. But you, I've always sort of felt like you can kind of, not exactly get away with not doing that, but you know, [00:33:00] if somebody's been a professional software engineer for a long time, , they know how to write some amount of code, at least.

So you can assume, you know, Certain things they probably had some types of experiences dealing with production out of, you know, there's a bunch of stuff like that That's there even if you don't test for it, so you don't have to be thorough about it But it feels to me like if you're saying, you know Hire a salesperson that doesn't have any of this like assumed tacit knowledge It raises the stakes on the rest of your interview process It 

Peter Ahn: does.

Yeah. , I'm glad you brought that up. Cause the caveat is also to think about what you can support the first sales hire with, right? So in some cases where you are maybe a former seller or have learned founder led sales in a way where you feel like you could teach somebody and that's where your energy is well put, then I think it's okay to start looking outside and to say, Okay, like I do want to look for these other skill sets because I don't see this person just as a salesperson.

I see them as, you know, , the tip of the spear for our brand, 

Alex Allain: [00:34:00] right? 

Peter Ahn: And so, so then like my, my thoughts are on making sure their phraseology and their presence and polish is there, becomes a lot more important. Now, if you don't have any sort of support around the sales process or the sales skill sets, then yes, you probably do want to say, okay, let's look for more of those skills because I feel like I can teach them on the company, the technical details or how to show up on a call.

And I actually like coaching people on smoothing like the rough edges of call presence, let's say. 

Alex Allain: So 

Peter Ahn: I do think you still have to kind of like take each of these archetypes with the grain of salt and to think about what you want to coach on and whether or not you do have somebody else to support on things that the candidate will be deficient on because every candidate is going to be deficient on something.

It's just a matter of what you choose to be deficient on. And what I'm suggesting is I do see a lot of startups being okay with having short term gaps in sales knowledge because [00:35:00] these other skill sets I think are so rare. Right? Around collaboration, being technical, , wearing a bunch of hats, project managing, all those types of things.

Alex Allain: Right. Peter, you're talking to your book now. 

Peter Ahn: Yeah, yeah, I kind of, I kind of am, right? And I'm talking to my coaching practice, I guess, too. 

Alex Allain: Yeah. 

Peter Ahn: You're, you're a product of your own experience. And because I've had so much fulfillment out of coaching folks who don't come from a sales background, that's also something that obviously impacts my thinking.

Alex Allain: Yeah, no, that's fair, but I like this. I think this gives some food for thought for founders as they're thinking about how to make this first hire, maybe frees them a little bit to hire the person they're more excited about, rather than the person who's been in the president's circle seven times or whatever.

Peter Ahn: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because that, by the way, president's circle, that means they've been a part of huge machines too. Yeah. Right, so. Maybe 

Alex Allain: that's a negative sign in fact. 

Peter Ahn: Yeah, exactly. 

Alex Allain: All right. Well, Peter, this has been really fun. Let's wrap it up. Um, so, we have [00:36:00] covered some things you are changing your mind on.

, and, for our listeners, we'd love to hear from you. , first of all, what have you changed your mind on from sales, either through listening to the podcast, or where do you disagree with us? , about something we've said. You can email us at, , podcasters at decoding, sales, podcast. com. And then, , obviously we want you to do all the things that make product managers happy and raise people's metrics, , in like the podcast apps where you like, like, and subscribe and other shit like that.

, but , more seriously, if you want to give us a nice end of your Christmas or Hanukkah or Kwanzaa or whatever present, , leave us a nice review. And if you. Don't like the podcast, don't leave that review. Just skip it and we'll feel great about ourselves. 

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